Episode 25 - Why Vexillology Matters with Kai McAlister

Frequent guest contributor Kai McAlister returns to go in-depth on one of his and Evan’s most cherished, ultra-nerdy topics: vexillology; or, the study of flags. We talk about why we are so fascinated by this topic, why it matters, and wax eloquent on what makes a good flag design, as well as listing several examples of both good and poor flag design.

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The “Good Flag, Bad Flag” paper explaining the five main “rules” of good flag design https://nava.org/good-flag-bad-flag 

J.J. McCullough YouTube video example: “I got some issues with flags” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCYMzn-n1zI 

J.J. McCullough YouTube video example: “The "bad" US state flags are good, actually” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzUDKYOQ_g0 

The “Buck family flag” design Evan created: https://imgur.com/gallery/buck-family-flag-UwVEveS 

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Intro music: Groovy Trip Hop/Marcolaieh/Tribe of Noise

Outro music: You Make Me/VBEBeats/Tribe of Noise 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Growing globalization trends, I would say, are kind of exposing and highlighting these county, city, state, and national flags to a level where flag makers need to contemplate not just what it means to their locality, but if it actually made sense and looks good and is recognizable and understandable cross-culturally. Because we are looking out for you. Joining me today is a frequent guest host of the show. Kai, how about you say hello to the fine people?

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Hello, hello, everyone. Good to be back for another episode on a topic which I think is of great importance, or at least great uh entertainment, for both of us. So I'm looking forward to a very quintessentially Kai and Evan episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Oh yes, absolutely. And this episode is one that has been in the works, in the making, for quite some time. It is one of very deep uh nerdological interest, as I like to say it. And I do hope, though, that the general audience that listens to this will find something interesting about it, and uh have some interesting takeaways, and be more mindful and aware of the various flags that exist around the world and around our everyday life. And yes, that is what today's topic is going to be. Now, the show episode, of course, is probably not indicative of enough of that, um, but the episode's title is Why Vexillology Matters. And Vexillology, of course, is the fancy terminology for the official academic study of flags. So that is what vexillology is, and Kai and I have a deep history of our interest with flags, and actually that's probably a good place just to kick off the episode. Uh, Kai, how did you get interested in the history of flags and all of those good fine nerdological things?

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Well, it's a good question. It's a profoundly um old question, even for someone who is as relatively young as me and you, uh, because my interest in flags goes back pretty much as far as I can remember. And of course, it's evolved and changed over time, so it's not what it what it was initially when I was a kid, but I always had a fascination with flags as sort of these discrete units that can describe in one rectangle an entire country and the way in which those flag designs differ, what makes a flag appealing, what makes a flag design unappealing. All of these things were interesting to me combined with an innate interest in geography and history. Uh, I think my our interest in history needs no explanation for those who are aware of our uh presence on the Important Time Podcast. The sister podcast. Shameless plug there. The sister podcast, shameless plug. Uh so yeah, history was of great interest to me as a kid, still is. Uh, geography was of great interest to me as a kid, still is. And as a fusion of those two, history and geography, one naturally has precipitating out of that flags, indispensable parts of history and indispensable parts of uh geography. And so it just naturally kind of comes to the fore this interest in flags. Uh but but also beyond that is the artistic element of it. I've always enjoyed good art, I've always enjoyed good um symbolism, and in that sense, a really good, well-designed flag has a great deal of appeal to me, and poorly designed, poorly thought-out, cheapily made flags have always been, in some senses, insulting to me. And I think in that explanation, I synopsize your fascination of flags probably 80%. But why don't you add to that?

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Yeah, absolutely. No, I I think you did a very good job of summarizing a lot of our shared interest in flags. For me in particular, um, I can actually point to two, well, I guess you can say three, but I'll just say two for now. Um, very hyper-specific instances of what got me into Vexillology. And um one of them was when I was young, my parents bought me, and I don't know if Time magazine still makes these, um, but they're it was called the Time for Kids, Kids Almanac. And I that was, I would probably say the Genesis, like kind of one of the defining moments of what got me so fascinated with just absorbing as much knowledge as I could about all the countries of the world, how they like showed the flags and like a quick set of facts about each country. Um, the format that they presented that, like, that really got me very interested. And I think that was where I started just learning and memorizing all of the different flags of the world. Um, not to brag, but both of us, Kai and I, both have a very strong working knowledge of flags. If you show us a random country's flag, we will more likely than not be able to tell you what country it is. Um it goes for states as well. Now, I can't tell you like different Mexican states or Russian oblasts or whatever. Like I'm not I'm not that far on the spectrum, but I can definitely tell you most every country, um, except for my most hated flags, when I do like flag quizzes, because there's a bunch of different flag quizzes, geography quiz apps that you can play. But Poland, Indonesia, and Monaco, um, if you look these up, this is an audio platform, so we don't have video to correspond with this, but just quickly type in like a comparison between those three flags, and you'll see why we have such a hard time keeping them straight. Anybody has. But outside of those and a couple others that are a little bit more uh discreet or um obtuse, we have a pretty solid hitting percentage when it comes to identifying flags. Um so I think that's one of the first.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Let's not forget about the ivory the ivory coast in Ireland.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

That's true. And Chad and Romania also, I think they have the same exact flag. But show it to me and I'll tell you it's Chad and Romania because they have the same flag.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Yeah, I think the Cote d'Ivoire flag has the same exact colors. Maybe it's a slightly different shade, but the order of the colors is different.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

That's what I was gonna say. It's they're switched, and so I think it's orange, white, and green for the flag of Cote d'Ivoire or the Ivory Coast, but the flag of Ireland has green, white, and orange. So I guess a way of trying to think about that or memorize that is Ireland is gonna have green first because they have the four-leaf clovers. That's probably a good way of remembering it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

Indeed, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Um, but anyway, so that's the first thing that really got me interested in flags. The other main thing was that, okay, I was just saying how I'm not too far on the vexillology spectrum, but this is going to really set me off on to just like breaking the scale on that. Um, and that was as a kid, I tried to make my own country. Um, and I would do this every once in a while. I would like draw up a flag, draw up a map of it, whether that's like out of existing countries or just on a map or something, or I would just like make my neighborhood like my own country. I actually one time I created a country named after my cat, uh Sheba at the time. That was her name. And so I called the country Shabaabwe. And I think that's a pretty hilarious, pretty funny name for a hypothetical country. Um but yeah, I created a flag for it. I just that's another thing that just got me really interested in flags, is just kind of like making with an active imagination my own countries, and you know, I'm I wish I had some of my old designs, because I'm pretty sure they're terrible, but from what I recall. But they were still it was still a fun exercise for me. And then the last thing that I would say, which is definitely shared between us both, is you're probably gonna take the words out of my mouth when I say it, Kai, the National Geographic GOB.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Yeah, I was gonna say we'd be remiss if we didn't we didn't mention that that that deep cut.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

Yeah, exactly. Unfortunately, one of the many casualties of the COVID-19 pandemic. Um, but yeah. The National Geographic GOB, kind of like a spelling bee competition. It was a spelling bee, but for geography. And that was, if I'm not mistaken, that was one of the first times that we had interacted with each other. We were not friends at that point. We didn't really become friends close to each other until we did speech and debate a few years later. But your family came over at one point and we had we have like a running slideshow on our computer of pictures on our computer, and one of your brothers noticed you in a picture, a group picture of us at the GOB competition, if I remember correctly.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

Yeah. No, it's an interesting story, right? Because um, for complicated reasons, my family, we kind of moved locations in in California multiple times, and I'm not gonna get into that, but basically, it had to do with the military. But basic my dad. But basically, um I lived in the same location or around the same area as Evan did for a couple of years, and in that time we participated in that geography B, not knowing uh who each other's was. Um, and then I moved away, and then I moved back uh to that same around that same location, and uh through a separate event, as you mentioned, speech and debate, we actually became friends. This was during in in our uh high early high school years, we became friends again, uh, but we didn't know that years prior we had met each other in the geography bee, and we just didn't know who each other who we who we were. Um, and so then my brother, as Evan mentioned, noticed that I was in a picture with Evan, and then we realized that, oh, we participated in the same spell, we participated in the same geography bee. It was just a very funny coincidence of history, and it also just was so quintessentially us that it happened to be a Geobe that we were uh first acquainted.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

Yeah, exactly. It's it's it's pretty fascinating deep cut history right there. But to move things right along, speaking of deep cuts in history, before we get into like some of our own, you know, nerdy fascination and interest with flags, some of what makes for a good flag, good flag design, um, I think it is useful to just kind of take a look back, uh, take a trip down memory lane, and understand the brief history, well not really the brief history, it's there's actually a fairly long history, but um just the history of flags and battle standards uh throughout time immemorial. Uh the modern concept of a flag, like being used for to represent a nation state, uh something of that order, really didn't come about too strong until uh the age of exploration, I would say, so call that like the you know sixteenth-ish centuries or so. Um, but they really came into their own in the eighteenth century, when like rising European nationalism uh meant that uh the common people needed a national symbol to rally around and to regularly identify themselves with their own nation states. But the concept of flags or using a flag to identify a regiment of the military, or uh, you know, us like the Roman Empire, for example, a particular emperor, um, those sorts of military standards actually have a much deeper history. Uh, we can see records of flag-like symbols all the way back in 11th century BC China. We don't really have any actual examples of the sorts of flags they used, we just have descriptions to to go off of. Um We also but we have some more uh definitive records of Roman standards, and this is where I actually think the word vexillology comes from, uh, is the Vexillum. The Vexillum was a it was very similar to a flag, and it was used as a military standard by different units in the Roman army. So yeah, flags have a very long, interesting, unique history. We have also like uh her heraldic flags, uh, particularly in Europe, particularly with the Holy Roman Empire, which, as I always like to say, whenever I mention it, it was not holy, it was not Roman, and it very much was not an empire. Um, but be that as it may, flags have a long and proud and fascinating history, and I think that just goes to show the importance of discussing it as a topic, because I'm sure anyone who's l who's listening to the show is an active listener, um, or even just a casual, uh innocent bystander. They're like, alright, guys, why are you two nerds hopping on and dedicating however long we're gonna yap about this topic? Why are you guys talking about flags so much? What makes flags so fascinating and so interesting? So, Kai, I'll step off the soapbox for a second and pass that over to you to talk about the importance of flags and why does this topic matter to the average person in their day-to-day life?

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Yes. So it's a good it's a good question and I'll answer it, but I want to go back to what to your description of the history of vexology, and I want to add in some additional detail that I think is important. It is true. Um, as you mentioned, that flag history uh goes back centuries, if not millennia, and uh it has always been a tradition of governments, kings, emperors, armies, navies to use these standards to demartate themselves. But I think the that is it is important to distinguish that from the common from the the modern day conception of what a flag is, because the ancient use of flags differs substantially from the way that we use them today. Yeah, that's important. Flesh that out. And you kind of mentioned it a little bit about how Roman flags were essentially limited to uh association with emperors or governments or armies, stuff of that nature, Chinese standards, same thing. But if you look up, if you were to just go into Google and look up Roman flag, you would see a flag and it would be displayed to you. It would have the Roman letters S P Q R, etc. And you would think that that was the flag of Rome, and that everyone, if you went back to Rome and you showed them that flag, or if you went to another part of the world that wasn't under Roman occupation and showed them that flag, they would immediately say, Oh, that's the flag of the Roman Empire. Not so. Um, it wasn't the case that the Roman Empire had a flag that represented the entire empire for all time, writ large. We must remember the Roman Empire lasted for much longer than the US lasted, and much longer than most modern countries lasted. Ditto for China, ditto for ancient India, ditto for most of the other European countries. In fact, the idea of a flag representing a country and a discrete unit of people and a discrete government is in fact a very modern concept. And one of the historical points that I want to highlight to demonstrate that is the fact that when the US was founded, right, today we the number one symbol for the United States is the American flag. I think that goes without saying. That need not be demonstrated. The American flag is the symbol for the US. But in fact, when the US was in the position of ratifying their flag, it was actually a secondary issue. The main thing that they wanted to ratify first was the American seal. Because back in those days, the flag was more or less ancillary. It was more or less something that was associated with war and the Navy. It was in the British Royal Navy, for example. It was not something that was necessarily associated with statehood or a nation. What was was the state's seal. And so the the government of the United States, the nascent government of the United States, was very keen on adopting their the American seal first, and then after that the flag was added in as sort of an afterthought. Very interesting to think about that, and because today we don't really think in terms of seals. Uh, maybe if we're dealing with the British Royal Family or the government of Canada or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Or like the presidential seal or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Or the presidential seal, for example. They still exist as sort of these uh charming historical anachronisms, um, so to say, but they do not have the same relevance as flags do. But back in in uh yesteryear, they were much more prominent and flags were seen as more ancillary. However, to get the point that you were that you asked me, the question that you asked me about why do flags matter and what relevance do they have to us today, I think I more or less sort of answered that inadvertently by saying that today a flag is, above all else, the descriptor for a country. At the time of recording, actually, we are in the throes of the World Cup, wherein a bunch of nations come together and they duel it out uh in their football/slash soccer matches to figure out who is going to be uh the reigning world champion. And when it comes time to uh look up a match, right, usually the way that they demarcate who's playing who is with the state flag or the country's flag. Um so it just goes to show how relevant these flags are to our understanding of what the country is. Um, and in a lot of cases, they are imbued with meaning, and sometimes that meaning is a little bit mysterious, or sometimes it's hard to decipher exactly what it's meaning, or in some cases it's left up to interpretation and not explicitly defined. But flags, especially at this time of year, and during the Olympics, for example, flags are what we rely on to distinguish who from who.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

And so I Well, and they're massive rallying symbols. Like I see, I distinctly remember, you know, especially like with World Cup crowds, like you just see massive crowds like all jumping under a huge, like you know, a sprawled out like version of their nation's flag, and you just have like a giant party of just people jumping up and down under it. Like it's it becomes a rallying point, it becomes a place of gathering, of community, of you know, everybody relating to each other. It's you know, it's kind of like a sort of you know, tribal marking system almost where okay, you're one of us, you cheer for the same team, uh, you know, and all the s the values that that flag represents of that country. Um, it's a big sense of national pride, for sure. Precisely.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah. And so, and then another thing too is like in struggles for statehood for peoples who don't have a state, the adoption of or the proliferation of a recognizable flag is kind of the only way that they can even be recognized in any way, shape, or form. I don't want to get political at all on this podcast, but think, for example, about the Palestinian flag. Palestinians don't have an officially recognized state, and yet their flag is almost as recognizable as the Israeli flag.

unknown 21:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

So it just goes to show how important.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

Yeah, sorry, finish your thought. I was just gonna say it it just goes to show the relevance and importance of having a good, recognizable, distinct flag is for bringing attention to the cause of statehood and rallying people around that cause.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

Yes, very well said. And like a striking flag leaves a very important imprint in memory, especially of, like you say, like a struggle for statehood or independence or greater autonomy. Um, again, not trying to get political here on the show, but just citing different examples for the sake of citing them. But one of the best examples I would say is the Tibetan flag. The Tibetan flag is incredibly well designed and very poignant, and it sticks in your memory when you see it. And so having it be instantly recognizable as tied to that people, tied to that cause, um It's very important and it raises awareness, especially when you're like at something like a protest or whatever, and you have a flag, and it might not just be tied to statehood. There can be m flags that are tied to political causes, social causes, movements. Um, you know, we tend to think of them almost strictly in the context of national unity or national movements or patriotism. Um, but there are flags of like patriotic fronts or like guerrilla groups or you know, just different organizations that are seeking to rally and jockey for popular support. So having a well-designed flag that represents your values um and what matters to you is is pretty important, whatever you're trying to accomplish. Um, it can definitely become a very important rallying symbol. So I think you summarized a lot of good reasons why flags matter. Um, to kind of just boil it down to a couple of key reasons, flags represent values, they reveal about what matter to us. I would say that a good flag can, you know, represent a state or a country or movement very well, but in contrast, an ugly flag or a poorly designed flag can, no matter the merits or the demerits of a given cause, um well, we'll be diving later into the show about like good and bad examples of flags. It can it can actually really harm um, you know, the overall PR, you know, public relations campaign of any given movement or country. Um visual and aesthetic design on a flag can also translate in many other ways. It just kind of goes to show the the seriousness and the intentionality of a people and their dedication to, you know, what matters to them and the importance of that. You mentioned the American flag, and I think uh that really was one of the turning points, I would say, in history of of making flags be more meaningful national symbols, because, you know, the first American flag had thirteen stars, thirteen stripes, all the colors had specific meanings to them, and this, you know, the American flag was far from the first flag to really have that delineated or specified, but it certainly was something that uh uh greatly aided, I would say, the colonial cause for independence. Once you had a rallying symbol to to get behind, it wasn't it was this sense of, okay, we are a nation, we are the United States of America, we aren't just thirteen disparate colonies all trying to cobble together some sort of threadbare coalition. We're actually uh, in a sense, in this together. And so those are some of the main reasons I would think of. I think it's also just interesting from a historical standpoint to take a step back and, for example, compare and contrast the flags of different uh civilizations or governments. Like you look at the like the flag of Ming China versus, you know, uh Mao Zedong's communist China, and you just see uh the s the the contrast. You can even just kind of get a picture right away of okay, this is a sea change in history. This is a moment where the defining, even just the defining color scheme of changes from yellow and blues and blacks and like the traditional Chinese motifs to uh red, just stark red, a little bit of yellow, but mainly red, and you know, just what does that mean and how does that kind of symbolize and depict a change in worldview, a change in opinion, a change in belief. It it really is interesting, just from a like a sociological perspective, a historical perspective. Um all you gotta do sometimes is just look at a flag and look at the changes in flags. Or even a more modern example, the flag of Afghanistan. You know, the flag of Afghanistan before it fell to the Taliban. I mean, it had a seal on it, so it wasn't well again, we'll get into the rules of flags and making good flags in a minute. Not really the most aesthetically pleasing flag, and the flag of Afghanistan changed so many times over the years, but then when you change to the Taliban's flag, it's quite striking. It's it's quite interesting. Um again, just seeing these moments in history. I think that's another reason why flags are important. But anyway, I think that's a perfect tr touching off point and transition into some of the good rules of thumb for good flag making. There are a couple of major vexillology or vexal vexillological. Try and say that five times fast. Um it's really a difficult word to say. Um, but vexillical societies, um, they've kind of agreed upon these five main rules for making a good flag. Kai, do you wanna you wanna tell the good audience what those rules are?

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Yeah, so the history of the five principles that make a good flag were established. They're not some sort of, you know, Nicene Council, you know, ordained by Almighty God that all nations must follow and adhere to. Um and as we'll see, there are many examples that flagrantly and yet successfully uh flaunt these rules. But in general, um the uh Vexillology Society, and I don't remember the I don't remember if it's the American Council of uh the American Vexical Association Vexillological Association, I can't recall exactly. But anyways, this this fellow named uh uh K was his last name, in 2001 he published a pamphlet, um I think it was a pamphlet, called Good Fad Bla Good Flag, Bad Flag. And essentially it laid down and gave examples of what made flags appealing and what made flags unappealing, enumerating it and distilling it into five essential rules. And the rules, I think, have some utility, um, but hopefully as we as we proceed through this podcast, we will be able to unveil some of its deficiencies and some of the very valid critiques that have been foisted upon it as being more of a suggestion than hard and fast than a set of hard and fast rules. But what are those rules? Let's establish that first. Rule number one, keep it simple. The design should be simple such that a child could just draw it from memory. Rule number two, it should use symbolism that is meaningful to the country. So rather than selecting a motley array of colors that are meaningless and designing something from s from that, you instead use colors that are of cultural signific or historical significance to that country and incorporate those into the flag design. And on the and on the topic of colors, and by the way, using meaningful symbols is not limited to colors. It can also be uh uh it can also be imparted in the design or in the the um uh features of the flag.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Yeah, I think some good examples just to just to step in here for a second, some good examples of elements outside of colors are things like stars, or you know, again, not getting political, but like the hammer and sickle on communist nations flags is a very stark symbol. Or in a lot of Muslim countries, the crescent moon, right, exactly. Or the Israeli flag with a star of David, or one of my favorite flags that I guess you can say somewhat violates some of the rules of uh vexillology is the flag of Christmas Island. I don't know if you remember or have seen that flag, Kai, but basically it's a flag with one of the birds native to the region on the right hand side, a little map of Christmas Island in the center in a in a yellow circle, and then on the left, and it's like it's bisected diagonally, and on the left is just some different stars. I think it's the southern cross, so it signifies that like Christmas Island is a part of Australia and you know, in the the the southern hemisphere of the world. It's one of the most striking flags to me.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

Yeah, it's a it's a very good flag. Or another example, uh, a personal example. Just last week, um, I was in the state of Missouri. Yep. Missouri's flag is horrific. It's basically, I think, Denmark, but with a steel Denmark with a seal. It's not a good flag. However, the city of St. Louis has an outstanding flag, yeah, an outstanding flag featuring prominently uh the Fleur de Lease, which is important because that city, of course, was originally a French city, uh, or a French colonial city. So it symbolizes the um it symbolizes the history of the city.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

It symbolizes the deep French history, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

The deep French history of that city, which is which is phenomenal. Um, and so that goes to rule number two. But when rule number with rule number three, we have the rules regarding coloring, meaning you should limit yourself when designing a flag to essentially two or three colors, um, and then you should only use colors that are um recognizable and contrasting in flags.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Yeah, so we're getting into color theory here, you know, kind of thing. Like finding colors that that work well in both like the sunshine and the shade, colors that like complement each other well. I'm not a very artistic aesthetic person, but I can also tell you just what there are some colors that really clash with each other interior design-wise. Um, you should try to avoid garish colors like you know, neon yellow, unless you're like trying to fly a warning flag or something. Like, but for a national flag, you want to make them not have your eyes bleed.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Yeah, precisely. Yeah. And then rule number four is no lettering or seals. So you're not to use any kind of writing, you don't you shouldn't use any coat of arms, you shouldn't use any organizational seals or anything that can't be identified from a distance. This is also, I feel, in keeping with rule number one, but a bit more explicit. Uh keep it simple and keep it recognizable from a distance. And if you have coats of arms or writing um or seals of any kind, that will almost instantly make it impossible for a child to draw from memory. Yeah. So I think that goes in keeping, but it's a little bit more explicit. And then the last and final rule is to be distinctive or be um related. So don't duplicate other flags, but if you have a cultural similarity or if you have a pattern that is uh relevant to another country, you can borrow from them, but you should not be a direct copy, if that makes sense. So you can be related, you can use similar colors. For example, the French flag, the British flag, they all use the same three colors, red, white, and blue, same for the USA. And it could be argued that the flag the colors of the United States of America were implicitly derived from the colors of Great Britain and the colors of France later on. They're all related in some way, and I don't know if that is the case. I'm just stating that there that could be an example of how a flag is.

SPEAKER_00 34:01

And yet they have a tricolor flag. Yeah, it's just like a red, white, and blue flag from the top to bottom tri-color. And it's like, I recognize it as the Netherlands flag, but I'm very surprised that there's no orange in their flag.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

It's the Netherlands flag, by the way, that is like a that this the Missouri flag is essentially the same thing as plus a seal.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Right. Yeah, and I was gonna I wasn't gonna correct you on that, but when you said like Denmark, I'm like, no, I know Denmark's flag. I I I don't think that's what you're talking about, but I wasn't gonna get to two Pandemic yet again. Yeah, which I will also throw in here as well and say the Scandinavian flags, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Iceland, incredible flags. Really solid designs. Yeah. And and here's the thing: it's one of the best examples that I can think of of um, you know, rule number five, making your flag distinctive but related to flares to flags they share context with. All of these flags are variations or spin-offs of the Nordic cross. And yet, due to different color design, due to certain choices, like Sweden only has two colors, Finland only has two colors, uh, Norway and Iceland have three different colors, but I can distinguish right away from the get-go what each of those flags represent, and the fact that they all have shared Scandinavian heritage. Um, Denmark, I forgot to throw in Denmark as well. This is probably one of the strongest examples, a collection of flags, examples that illustrate rule number five.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

Yes. And I think the Scandinavian flags are really a textbook example of adherence to these five design principles in a successful way. They really the Scandinavian flags, as well as the Union Jack, as well as a lot, as well as like maybe the flag of Germany and the flag of France and the flag of Italy, they make the case that these five rules are solid design principles that yield highly distinctive, highly recognizable flags. And they're great case studies for if you want to figure out how you can use those rules to design good, well, d design good, distinctive, easily recognizable flags.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

But there I think it is interesting, just to jump in here as well, I think it's interesting that we mention a lot of these European tri-color flags, because I do remember discussing with you before how, and I broadly agree with the principle, but there are some tri-color flags that in Europe or in Africa or some other countries that we feel aren't very distinctive. And so I I interrupted your thought, whatever you're going to get into there, but I just wanted to throw that for the record, and maybe we can come back to that thought in a second. But I do agree that the flags we cited are great examples. I'm just curious as to what makes some tricolors not distinctive and others we hold as great examples of flag design.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

That's a great point. That's a very good point. But I and I think it it demonstrates some of the criticisms that are applied to these five design principles. And I think what the biggest and most poignant criticism that is uh levied on these design principles is that they are essentially rules that they're they're basically derived from European flags. They they look at European flags and they say, okay, what do these flags have in common? And of course, there are exceptions. I mean, the Spanish flag features prominently.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

I was just gonna mention the Spanish flag as an interesting example because it has a, um, if I remember correctly, I I don't know if it's the like the royal seal of the Spanish monarchs, or if it's just like the Spanish state. I'm pretty sure it's the the royal um Spanish seal. And what's interesting about that flag is the official version does have the seal, but there is a very commonly used unofficial flag of Spain, which is very recognizable around the world, that completely omits the royal seal. And I think that's interesting. Um, Portugal does not have like an unofficial flag like that. They do have a similar um national seal on their flag, but it is also a national seal that I feel is quite distinctive and quite easy to draw or to remember. So Brazil is an interesting example of a country that has a national seal, but I feel it is such an incredibly well-designed flag, even though it has the country's national motto on it. Um it's one of those flags that breaks or bends the rules of good flag design, but it's just so distinctive and so well designed that it gets away with it. But 100%.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

I digress. Yeah, and also let's just take a word on the topic of span. I don't know if we'll get back to the Iberian Peninsula at any point, so I will just take a moment to say and shout out the Catalan flag. Anyways.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

100%.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

Um, it's a great flag. Amazing. It's a great flag.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

But um what I was getting at was that there are people who criticize these five flag design rules, and they cite poignantly many examples that flagrantly violate them and say, listen, these rules are derived from the flags of Europe that are in many ways highly distinctive, highly characteristic, but are not, they the rules more so define European flags than they do define flag making writ large, if that makes sense. So rather than being rules that must be applied or or even suggestions that ought to be adhered to, they are simply derived from pre-made European flags listed in a made to made into a list of rules and then applied and said and used to criticize and judge other flags. When in fact, as we've already mentioned, there are examples uh that flagrantly violate one or more of these rules and do so to with great success. And Evan brought up two examples just in the European continent alone of Spain and Portugal. But I think perhaps my the the biggest example that I think flagrantly violates this with great success, um, it is among one of my most favorite favored flags is the South African flag, the new South African flag, adopted in 1994. What rule does it violate? Well, it it flagrantly violates the rule regarding color usage. Yep. The the South African flag features prominently a number of colors. It has black, it has yellow, it has green, it has white, it has red, it has blue, it has a bunch of different colors, well more than three, and yet it is such a well-designed flag, and it is so distinctive, and it is instantly recognizable. It's an example of a flag that is just outstanding in every way.

SPEAKER_03 40:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Um, and I would I would say that the new South African flag is an example of a 10 out of 10 flag. I'm not saying it's my favorite flag, because there are other flags that I prefer to it, but in terms of flag design, I cannot argue that it's a 10 out of 10 flag.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

It's a really strong flag for sure, and I love it. I do have a quick funny story about the South African flag. I have heard anecdotes of you know students from South Africa coming to the US and displaying the South African flag in their dorm room or whatever, and American students will, ignorant American students will come by and be like, oh, what sort of pride flag is that? You know, they're like, they don't know it's the South African national flag. Uh yeah, the American education system is pretty bad. And so, with a lot of things like geography and flags, and so that just goes to show we need vexillology matters, you know. Um, another great example from the African continent of a flag that violates these principles is the flag of Seychelles or Seychelles. I don't know. Yeah, I know how to pronounce that, but uh you look it up, and it has five oblique bands of blue, yellow, red, white, and green. So we have five different colors, and it is just cutting across the surface in such a striking way, but it really does such an incredible job of of symbolizing the country and and what different aspects matter to them. Um I'm just I just took the liberty to look up what the colors mean, but blue means the sky and the sea, yellow is the sun, red is for the people, white for social justice, and green for the land. And it's just when you see those cup five colors displayed as they are, you really get a sense of the different elements, even without them being explained to you. I just think it's I just think it's quite interesting. A lot of times the color red in national flags um symbolizes like blood or like the sacrifice of different people to, you know, for the struggle for independence or things like that. Um so it is interesting when you see red being used in different contexts. Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

But yeah. No, I I agree. And I think that there are I think that what it would be what's interesting is to kind of go through the rules that are the rules. I think they're more like suggestions.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Yeah, they're more like rules of thumb. Like there's nobody that's gonna there's no like vexological uh commission that will guillotine, you know, a a com a group of people for for designing a poor flag. But I think what you're getting at, Kai, is maybe we can look at some examples of strong flags that in certain instances violate these principles.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

Precisely. Yeah. So, like rule number one, keep it simple. There are the I think that this is probably the most the rule to which I the most wed. And I think that the vast majority of cases, a simple flag that can be easily drawn is what makes a good flag. A good flag. And so, of all the rules, of all five of the rules, I would say number one is to me the most universally applicable. But even it has exceptions. And the one that springs to mind for me is the flag of British Columbia. An iconic flag. An iconic flag. Something that is, you know, deeply in ingrained in the symbolism of British Columbia. And yet, it is not a simple flag.

SPEAKER_00 44:32

It is quite complicated, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

Squiggly lines, it features a sun, it features the Union Jack. It's a little garish, and by no means is it my favorite flag design of all time, but I think it is successful, and I think it is a decent flag in terms of and it is one that violates rule number one.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Yeah, I would agree. I would say another flag that I don't know if it necessarily fully violates the principle, but I'll say it definitely bends the principle for sure, is the flag of Kazakhstan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The flag of Kazakhstan is just so striking. Generally, I I noticed for myself that I tend to like flags that have uh like stylized birds in them as symbols. I don't know what that is for me, but the flag of Kazakhstan definitely has that. It has a giant. I I don't know what fl what uh bird it actually is in that flag, so I'm not gonna say it. But I'm gonna say it looks kind of like an eagle of some kind, so I'm I'm just gonna I'm gonna misgender the bird. I'm I'm sorry, Borat. Um but it also has like a sun in there, and I think if I remember correctly, you know, I'm I'm gonna look this up just so I don't completely talk out of my butt here. I think there might be like some yeah, there's like some uh different uh I don't know what it is for the left-hand side of the flag, like the canton of the flag. Um, but it's a national ornamental pattern that is, again, distinctly Cossack. And as soon as I see this flag, I know exactly what country it represents. And it's it's one of the best examples, I would say, that violates rule number one.

SPEAKER_02 46:14

Yeah, and again, one that's a little bit more ancestrally close to home. The Scottish uh the Royal Banner of Scotland. Not the Scottish, not the typical Scottish flag, the the white and blue uh cross, but the royal banner of Scotland features prominently a lion on it, not easily drawn, very complex. Um I'm reminded as well of the Welsh flag, similarly featuring a dragon on it.

SPEAKER_00 46:39

One of the best flags, it's an ancestral flag for me, too.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

Yeah. So yeah. Not so much for me, but I still love the Welsh flag. And and and then, of course, we have the Bhutanese flag. We have the Mongolian flag.

SPEAKER_03 46:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 46:52

We have uh the I think the Sri Lankan flag as well, if I'm not mistaken. You're right. Exactly. One of my all-time favorite. Yeah, one of my all-time favorite flags is the Sri Lankan flag. These are all examples of flags that are not simple. I would say the Sri Lankan flag is more simple in that the lion that it features is a bit more uh simply drawn. It's it features fewer uh intricacies, but nonetheless, it's still an example of a flag that isn't uh that isn't simple in its in its presentation. Um and in fact, I think that in this sense, although I think rule number one is a good design philosophy to abide by, I also think that rule number one can be, in some cases, a double-edged sword. In that you can keep it too simple. And this is something, this is a common um complaint that I have about the European flags, a lot of the European flags, is that they are a lot of them simply vertical or horizontal bars on a rectangle. And although they are distinct, although they are very easily and simply drawn, a child could draw them, no problem, no questions asked. A lot of them seem to just be reusing these motifs over and over again. And sometimes, as Evan uh poignantly noted out, they do so at the expense of what would otherwise be a very iconic national symbol, i.e., the use of orange in the flag of the Netherlands because it's so distinctly um uh Danish or Dutch. I always get this confused. Dutch. It's so distinctly Dutch. Uh so I again, this would be this an example of keeping it too simple can also hinder the the design of the flag. Um so you gotta you gotta apply the rule, but you gotta apply it in a way that's just right. Keeping it simple enough so that a kid can draw it is a generally good rule of thumb, but it can be overdone and made too simple. I mean, the greatest adherent, and I think Evan already knows where this is going. The greatest adherent of rule number one is the iconic, or at least among Evan and I, the iconic flag of which country, Sir Evan.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

Um actually, I'm not I'm kind of having a brain fart moment at the at this point.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

No, no, no, no, no. You know who it you know what it is. You know what it is. It's the it's the flag, it's the monocolor flag of of of of legend.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Oh, is it the Libyan flag?

SPEAKER_02 49:39

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 49:42

Well, and to be distinct, it is the during Moammar Qaddafi's uh Um reign in power, yeah, clearly just pure green on a flag is so memorable, so distinct, and very, very simple. It is the it is the pinnacle of flag design, what can I say?

SPEAKER_02 50:03

I mean it's it i i if you take number if you take rule number one to its literal conclusion, you end up with the Libyan flag.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Yeah. Um, I mean if you can't tell, we're being sarcastic.

SPEAKER_02 50:14

Um we're being we're being extremely sarcastic. We're saying that rule number it's it's it's it's uh demonstrating the fact that rule number one can be applied to excess. The original flag of Libya or the uh flag of Libya under Muammar Gaddafi was just a green rectangle. It's since been updated to a much more appealing flag, but originally under Muammar Gaddafi, it was just a green rectangle. And although it is distinct because of how undistinct it is or indistinct it is, it is an example of rule number one being taken too far, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

Yeah. And and basically a good rule of thumb for me when I think of a flag that's too simple is can I confuse it with a flag that would flutter outside new apartment rentals or like a new real estate project? Like, because I'm sure you guys have driven past this before and you've seen like different new like new apartments for sale. And I have seen even a flag that I would think would be a pretty cool tricolor flag for some sort of like um, you know, island beach nation in like the South Pacific or the South Indian Ocean or something, where it's like sky blue, um, golden yellow, and white on the bottom. And I'm and that was outside of like a storage center, you know. And I'm just like, man, it's kind of a good thing that that's not some country's national flag, because while I think it's a striking tricolor, it's also being used for a literal parking lot and storage units. So um yeah, so I think that's kind of a good rule of thumb to follow, is it's like if you so I feel like, for example, let's take the French flag. France's flag is so distinct and iconic because you see it and you immediately recognize it as France's flag. You take the tricolor flag of Romania, on the other hand, and Chad, which are, by the way, pretty much the same exact flag. So I don't understand, and I I've never looked into the history of why Romania and Chad share the exact same flag, why they decided to do it. I know that they have different symbolisms and meanings for each of the governments there, but I'm a vexillologist nerd, you know, and so I can look at the flag of Romania and Chad and say, hey, that is the flag of Romania and Chad. Like they're they're separate countries, but they have the same flag. But because they have the same flag, uh I it kind of loses its distinctiveness for me. Uh Moldova is an example of a national flag that I think is pretty decent, and it indicates how close of a relationship it has with Romania. But again, I don't know, and it it it's kind of a it's hard to describe what makes a certain tricolor overused or not overused, but I will say that or even just like, you know, color flags with two colors, like the one, you know, I cited Poland, Indonesia, um, and Monaco. You have two countries that are on the same continent, and they basically use the same flag, just inverted. Let's let's get some creativity. You know, let's get a little bit of creativity. In fact, I might actually have that wrong. I think Poland and Monaco might have almost the same flag, and it's Indonesia that has it inverted. Um But I I'm gonna look this up, because this is this is something that always frustrates me. Okay, no, so Monaco and Indonesia have the same flag, it's just a different aspect ratio, and Poland has it inverted. Uh so Monaco and Indonesia have red and then white, and Poland has white and then red. But like, yeah, it completely loses its distinctiveness to me. But y'all need to go and update your flags because I can't keep them apart.

SPEAKER_02 54:00

For me, to answer that question a little bit about what makes a tricolor distinct or not, I think you have to implicitly acknowledge the fact that certain tricolor motifs are used frequently. And so, although it may not spring to mind that we have the same color flag um repeated, maybe just rotated 90 degrees or with a state symbol plastered on somewhere, I think you do end up having this implicit understanding of like, oh, this flag, I've seen this color, these colors used in another country's flag before. I just may not recognize it. Take, for example, take for example, like the flag of Italy or the flag of Germany. Um, these are decent flags and they're pretty recognizable, but like Germany and Belgium, they have the same or very similar colors. And again, we gotta also acknowledge that some countries are very particular about the shade of color that they use. Yeah. So although we say they have the quote unquote same color, if you asked a vexillologist from that country, they would immediately call you out for being an ignorant because their shade of red is two shades lighter than the other countries.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Monaco technically has a shade that is different from Indonesia's, I believe. But again, you just look at it from a general observer's point of view, and it's practically the same.

unknown 55:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 55:22

I'm reminded of the fact that the Japanese flag from World War II is different from the Japanese flag of today, and the way that it is different is that the color of red in the circle in the middle is two shades apart, either darker or lighter from the flag of World War II.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

Well, and besides the fact that the flag of World War II has and uh is again, aside from politics, the Japanese imperial flag is one of the most striking, incredible flags to me of the rising sun with all of the rays extending out from the sun. Incredible flag. Again, we're not talking about politics here, but it is an outstanding flag. And I do honestly feel like even though the modern Japanese flag is it's a striking flag. It's a good ex it's a good flag. I don't get me wrong, but compared to the Imperial Japanese flag, I do kind of feel it's a little neutered. And that's I think sort of the point of it. You know, just based on their history and everything, and them, you know, uh like de um what's the word? Not nuclearizing, but de um. You know what I'm saying. Like they're like they're getting rid of the military. So you know. I don't know. I haven't looked up the history on that, but I'm sure that has a decent part of it.

SPEAKER_02 56:35

You're you're right, but as I understand it, the the the the imperial flag that you're thinking of, the rising sun flag, is distinct and was distinct at the time from the national flag. The national flag is has always been that that single flag. But the end sign. The end the end sign of the the the um it was the the one that you're thinking of is like a military flag. That is a military flag, yeah, you're right. Yeah, it's a it's the rising sun flag. And I don't know if that flag is still used today. I have a suspicion that it is, but that is distinct from the national flag, which is just the white background with the red circle. That one was also changed from the World War II version, and all it was was a couple of shades apart from the uh the original one. But what I'm getting at, what I was getting at before, is that a lot of these tricolor motifs are used and they're just altered slightly. Belgium and Hungary, for example. Same colors, roughly, different orientation. Belgium has vertical stripes, Germany has horizontal stripes. Italy, green, white, and red, vertical stripes for Italy, but Hungary has horizontal stripes. And then I think um uh Bulgaria also has the same colors just in a different order. Um, so we have these motifs that are repeated over and over and over again. The French flag, vertical stripes, the Russian flag, horizontal stripes in a different order, and I think Slovenia or Slovakia also has those same colors, but just they want to they also have a uh they have a national symbol.

SPEAKER_00 58:03

Yeah. Yeah. Which is pretty good. It's a pretty, it's a pretty um, again, it kind of violates the rule against national emblems or seals, but they're pretty simple, kind of like the Portuguese flag. They're pretty simple, pretty distinctive. I can tell the Slovenian from the Slovakian flag at the snap of a finger.

SPEAKER_02 58:19

Right. And so for me, if I look at two, let's take two flags, for example, let's take the Austrian flag, and let's take the um German flag, for example. If you ask me which one do I prefer, I would tell you that I prefer the Austrian flag, because even though the Austrian flag only has two colors, to me it's a more distinct motif, red, white, red, versus the German flag, which is shared with the Belgian flag and is therefore less distinct. So it it there is a distinction, there is uniqueness to be found in having a unique color combination than having the same color combination, but a different geometry. Um and it is made even worse if the if that geometry is just simply rectangles. Um it can make that color motif feel jaded, even if it is technically unique in terms of orientation.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

Indeed, yeah. And what is so interesting when you mention the Austrian flag is there is another flag that is quite similar to it, but also I would still say is fairly distinctive. And you show me Austria, you show me Latvia, which is essentially the same as Austria, but what they do is they not only have a very different shade of red, to where I can not only tell that, but the band of white in the middle of Latvia. The thickness of the band is much different, and the aspect ratio of the flags are also different. So it's interesting because on the one hand, and this is this is all just very um, you know, not objective, it's very subjective. So you might be like, well, wait, you guys have been spending like 10 minutes of the episode complaining about the Indonesian and the Monaco flags being different the same at different aspect ratios, and yet you like Austria and Latvia, and they're basically the same with different aspect ratios. Again, this is all subjective, and I do think Latvia does more to distinguish by having the band narrower, but it is also just keep in mind when we're talking about this, this is all inherently subjective. I do think there are certain flags that we'll get into later that are. I mean, we can't be objective about this, but pretty much you look at it and they are about as objectively garish and ugly as you could possibly get on a flag. But even there, we recognize this is all a subjective exercise.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:45

Yeah. Which I think we should maybe start transitioning over to now because that's another topic that we wanted to talk about, but that would require us to come back to the homeland.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

Oh, yes. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

The homeland, the homeland. Now, before we do that, let's talk about the American flag. And let's remove all semblance of patriotism, let's remove all semblance of our attachment to the flag, given that we are both from the United States of America. And I want to get your opinion on this, even though I know we've already had this discussion in in uh days past, but I want to get your opinion on the American flag. Because, in my opinion, the American flag is an example of a flag that technically adheres to the five design principles outlined, um, but does so, in my opinion, I'm not gonna say unsuccessfully, but it's not a flag that screams good design to me. And if I had to criticize the American flag, which by the way, I still think it's a good flag, it's definitely upper tier, but it is not top tier for me. And if I had to describe it in one word and critique it in one word, rather, that word would be cluttered.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:05

I was gonna say busy. Yeah. Busy, cluttered. Because here's the thing the symbolism is iconic and it makes sense. Um, you know, every you add a star for every state in the United States. Uh, thank the Lord that they stopped adding stripes. Because I remember seeing earlier versions of flat of uh when we had like 15 states, 16 states. I don't know exactly when we stopped adding stripes, but when you get above 13 stripes, alternating colors, it just looks bad. It just looks really bad. And so we have the so the symbolism is top-notch. What the red, white, and blue mean and symbolize, the 13 original colonies being represented by 13 alternating red and white stripes. And I mean, it represents America. It is so, you know, just noticeable, instantly iconic. I would say the American flag is the Coca-Cola of flags. Oh, 100%. It is so well known, and it is, you know, Coca-Cola has been encountered by 98%, I believe, of humanity. The United States flag is so iconic, you can't change it. Like, just as a matter of fact, the only way you can change it is if you add more stu if you add more states. But in terms of the fundamental design philosophy, I think there would be riots if we tried to redesign the American flag. That being said, I do agree to a certain extent. Um, and really it's kind of a silly reason, but I do think it is a reason worth noting. When you talk about the principle of simplicity, as we said, it's a little bit on the cluttered side, but to me, I think the main thing that makes it cluttered are the stars. The stars that represent every state. I mean, I look many times when there are patriotic themed, you know, like t-shirts or uh pieces of memorabilia or things that are being sold in stores to commemorate the Fourth of July or whatever, and it irks me so much when I see an American flag that does not have 50 stars. And, you know, maybe it's even like on a little sign or something, and I know it's not supposed to be a literal American flag. I know it's just meant to symbolize the American flag because it's so iconic. But you give me an American flag that has 20 stars or 30 stars on it, and I instantly look at it and I know that it is a fake American flag. Like I know it's not a real American flag. It looks terrible to me. You look at earlier instances of the American flag as we were growing as a nation, uh, because we adhere to the rule of every state having a star, some of our own American flags that might have had not might not have been used for very long because we were adding states so fast at a certain point, but they look kind of bad. I hate to say it, but yeah, the old red, white, and blue didn't always look so great. I would just look at a Wikipedia article of all of the instances of the American flag as it grew over the years. Um, some of them just have garishly larger stars than the others. Uh, some of them have rows that just look like you used the tab button too many times on like you tried to insert an image on Microsoft Word, and it completely destroys the um what's the word I'm looking for? When you have like two different things on the same symmetry, thank you. It completely destroys the symmetry of the flag, makes it look awful. Um I think we might be exposing our latent OCD with this episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:43

Um but I was just about to say uh in my opinion, a superior version of the American flag, or not maybe not a superior version, but maybe a um a simpler, more distilled version of the American flag can be found in the flag that many Americans still confuse for the American flag. For what I can say are historically understandable reasons, and that is the Liberian flag.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:05

The Liberian flag, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:06

Which is the American flag. But instead of having 50 stars garishly transposed on it that make it very difficult to see from a distance or identify from a distance, it just has a single star, which to me makes the flag look a lot more symmetric, a lot more appealing. I would make some alterations to it. I feel like the blue um rect the blue square is a little bit too small. If you made it a little bit bigger, it would be a little bit more appealing. But ultimately, the Liberian flag, I think, applies some of those principles and makes an American flag that's more um distinct. But as you were talking of it, I actually thought of a new rule that I think may be helpful in defining why the American flag has some issues with it that we've I that we've uh enumerated here, which is that, and this is more of a very hypermodern um rule for flag design, but I'm curious what your thoughts on it would be. Sure. They say that the flag needs to be identifiable at a distance, and I say that in in something like the World Cup, the flag should be able to be easily brought down to a smaller resolution and still identified.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:23

Yeah. No, I think that's a good rule to have, especially especially for the modern world, because obviously this smaller resolutions wasn't really something that was necessarily would be anything that would go through the minds of people in the 17th and 18th centuries. I mean, having the size of a flag be bigger or smaller, definitely, but the idea of resolution and being able to make it look good even when it's like really, really small, and yet it still looks good. Yeah. I I would say that's probably a good possible rule number six. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:55

So again. The the the American flag, I would again, I would say it's maybe mid to upper tier um overall in terms of all flags, uh, but I still do have some gripes with it. It's not a it's not quite on design principles. Again, we're not talking about messaging here or implicit uh symbolism, but purely from a design standpoint, it's not on the same tier for me as the flag of Norway or the Scandinavian flags writ large or the South African flag. It's not quite there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:27

Um but it's like I'll name drop some other flags here because I have a Kai knows this, you can see this on my document. I have a long list of flags that are, I think, are personally incredible flags. I'm gonna name drop some of them before we start name-dropping and ripping on some horrible flag designs. Um, but there are some flags that I think are very much worth noting as abiding by most, if not all, of the rules of these uh that we've elucidated, or they might violate them in certain instances. Um, but some state flags, as long as we're talking about the United States, perhaps one of the most recognizable and stark flags that I think are pretty amazing. Well, really, there's three of them, but I'll list off the first flag, which I think is probably one of, if not the best state flag in the country, and that's New Mexico. Absolutely. New Mexico is an outstanding flag, simp simple, stark, distinct colors, has it's not a national symbol, but it's a state symbol that is indelibly tied to the state. The moment you see the flag, you know it's New Mexico. Simple enough for a child to have to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:31

I've been to New Mexico, yeah. Yeah, I went to New Mexico. The symbolism, the souvenirs that are brandished with the state with the state flag are innumerable. It is a selling point for the state. It's so iconic. And even though it features a symbol, the symbol itself is so simple that a child could very easily draw it. It is an outstanding state flag.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:54

It's amazing. Other flags which happen to coin coincidentally be in that whole area, that whole region. Um, really, the four state flags of the four corner states are incredible. Yeah, we talked about this before. But for different reasons.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:06

Four corner really has stepped up their game. Arizona is amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:11

Distinctive, everybody knows it. Colorado is one of the most inventive flags of all time. You literally have a C to represent Colorado, but it doesn't look ugly. In fact, it is so well ingratiated into the flag's design that I whoever designed that flag should have gotten a gold star and I don't know, a small loan of a billion dollars. Like that flag is just so outstanding. And the Utah flag used to be a flag that was incredibly ugly, incredibly garish. It had a giant state symbol in the middle of it. They redesigned it, and it's it it it slightly violates um the simplicity principle, I would say, but it is still outstanding. And it has it has uh imagine a flag with a giant honey beehive in the middle of it, and yet it's still a great-looking flag. And that's the flag of Utah. And I think it's it's a huge step up from what they used to have.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:08

Yeah, and I'm and I'm very supportive of the redesign because um the four corner state, for those who are not in the U.S., the four-corner state are the states that all meet at a single point, and it's called the Four Corners, and you can actually visit it and put a body part in each of the four states, so you can claim that you're in each of the four states. And those states are Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, and Utah. And Arizona state flag, my home state, uh, arguably between California and Arizona, either one I call my home state. Um, Arizona flag's outstanding, New Mexico flag, outstanding, Colorado flag, amazing. And the Utah flag used to be garish, it used to be unappealing, but now it is also great, meaning that all four states that make up the four corners all have really outstanding flags. So props to the designers of the Four Corners flags. Props to really good job.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:03

And that actually does um bring up a good topic, which we will get into um later, kind of to taper off and end the show. But before we get to that, we do still have to discuss some bad flag examples, garish designs. Um, but I'll just, you know, kind of inoculate you all to this thought, and that is modern software, modern flag movements, um, you know, are able to kind of remedy the sins of some bad flag design from the past. And we can see modern examples of that happening. Um for sure, and Utah, we've kind of already stated as a great example of that, but I'll name drop some other great examples, and Kai, if you want to throw some in as well, or like talk about any of these flags that we can just like take some time to fanboy over various flags, I guess, before we get into bad flag design. Um, but let's just start name-dropping some of them. Uh, Northern Cyprus, fantastic flag.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:04

Excellent.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:04

An inversion of the Turkish flag, but still a great one. Um, East Timor. East Timor is a very meaningful flag to me. Um, one that you don't see very often at all, but is one that I think has a lot of deep history behind it, especially with their struggle. Unique, very unique color scheme with that one. I love it. Incredibly unique. I would say, I don't know if I would say this is one of if my if this is my favorite flag of all time, but it certainly is up there. Greenland. Greenland has an incredible flag. Um, and the inversion of the colors, the national symbolism and meaning that is just so simple and stark, incredible. Really well done. Um Barbados. Barbados is one which has a decently unique color scheme to it, and the symbol of the trident in the middle of it. I mean, you can say maybe it reminds you a little bit of UCSD a little bit. Um but for the for those of us outside of San Diego, you're probably not gonna think of that. So Barbados, I'd say, is a pretty solid one. Now there's two flags that I group together that definitely violate the simplicity principle, but they use incredibly meaningful symbolism. And they're two flags that I would say most people who are flag nerds like us would say are very strong examples of good flags. The Isle of Man and Sicily.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:23

Yes, yes, yes. Uh some of my favorite flags, actually. I love these flags. Particularly Isle of Man. I love the Isle of Man flag.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:32

It's so good. Yeah, and the th funny thing about the Isle of Man is not so much how much I see it in actuality, but how many spoofs of the Isle of Man flag that I have seen. Yes. Like I've seen probably perhaps the most iconic spoof I've seen is an Isle of Woman flag. And it literally just takes the three legs and puts them in stilettos. I just think it's incredible. I think it's so funny. Um but yeah, there's other spoofs of that flag too that I find quite enjoyable. But yeah, the Isle of Man and Sicily, they have great flags.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:06

Uh two state flags that I wanna that I want to name properly quickly, um, that I personally love um for two very distinct reasons. Uh, but ironically, they're actually somewhat related color scheme wise, and that's the flag of Chicago, iconic flag.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:22

Oh, one of the best city flags. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:24

Yeah. I really like it when a city has its own unique flag design, especially when the city's flag design so clearly outshines its provincial or state flag design. Uh the flag of Illinois, yikes. It's pretty bad. But the flag of Chicago is iconic and so good. Um, and of course, Chicago has turned it into a cultural symbol, and they sell souvenirs of it all over the place. It's everywhere when you go to Chicago. Um, and I love it. I love the city of Chicago, and I love the flag of Chicago. Going to the other side of the world, another flag that is absolutely iconic, even if you don't recognize that it is iconic, is the state flag of Bavaria.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:08

They're similar because they actually kind of have a similar color scheme. They're not exhaust- they're not at all design design-wise similar, but the Bavarian state flag is I don't know. There's something that just reminds me of like a the way that like the McDonald's PlayPlace wallpaper used to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:28

There's something that is such a deep cut, but yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:31

Yeah. It's there's something so simple and yet appealing about it to me. Um now there is a version of the so the the the the the modern Bavarian state flag is basically just a blue and white um, I guess that would be what is that, like a parallelogram? Um, or a rhombus or something like that. I don't remember my geometric shapes, but it's basically just a blue and white pattern of what I think are parallelograms, and then we have um nothing else on the flag. But there is another flag which has a uh state's uh which has a seal on it, like the Bavarian seal on it, which is also good. Um, because I think one thing that we're gonna talk about, because we're about to go and riff on the so-called horrible flags, yeah. Horrible flags that feature state seals. But I know that I've heard this from you, Evan, because I mentioned it and you agreed with it. I am a lot more forgiving of European seals than I am of American seals. Yes. Uh, because I think European seals, they feature more first of all, they have more they have a lot of history of heraldry behind them.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:41

And quite frankly, most of those designs are just so much better and so much more visually interesting and appealing than American state seal designs. Like, a f of a flag that has a dragon on it, I mean, come on. A lion's hard to argue. A unicorn, a lion, like, yeah, some of those seals are pretty epic. And so even though it's a lot better than just having principalities, which is what most of the American state seals. Yeah. Exactly. I would definitely agree with that. I'm a little more forgiving. There are some European seal flags that maybe aren't super appealing or are too over-designed, but compared to American state seal flags, they, you know, I would I would have the European flags win by a long shot. For sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:27

But anyways, those are the two flags that I want to name drop.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:29

Yeah, definitely. And when you mentioned Bavaria, I kind of mentally group Bavaria, and I think Bavaria is also another one of those flags that has a uh version without the seal on it. Um, kind of like Spain. Yeah. And so you have whichever version you prefer, it's but both of them symbolize Bavaria, which is great. But Maryland is a state flag that I tie with Bavaria kind of mentally in my head, and very much violates the simplicity design, um, very much limits the uh like the contrasting colors rule, I would say, because I kind of find Maryland's flag colors to not actually gel together well in a vacuum. Like you tell you just list the state colors of Maryland to me, and I'm like, uh, that would not make for a good looking flag. You then show me the Maryland flag, and I'm like, why does this work?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:27

I agree with I actually agree with you in lotting the the Maryland flag, but I have seen a lot of people decry it as one of the worst flags ever made. So in the case of I don't know what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:37

I think it's a very divisive flag, but to me, I think it's iconic, and I think it's a very strong uh state flag.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:44

I agree with you, it's an iconic flag. Even though it bends the rules, controversial.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:47

Yeah, it definitely bends the rules for sure, but I think it has a lot of meaning to it. History, symbolism, yeah, good stuff there. Um let's see, but just looking down at my list here, Angola and Mozambique are two African countries. Oh, and I'll throw in Botswana as well in Zimbabwe. Um, Zambia, horrible flag. Zambia, uh no, it's just don't think don't it's like Zambia tried to make a tricolor and then like switch and put like vertical bars as well. It's and they have a state symbol in it. It's so weird. Um, but I list Zimbabwe, um, Mozambique, and Angola because they very prominently feature deeply meaningful state symbology on those flags. The color schemes are quite striking. Um Zimbabwe's is a little busy, but I still think is quite striking from a distance. Botswana is incredibly simple. It's, you know, sky blue, two bars of white, and then black in the middle. But I happen to find it a very visually appealing flag. Um South Carolina state flag is a really good one that's incredibly simple, two colors, and it has like a palmetto tree and a moon, like a crescent moon on it. Um it somewhat violates the simplicity rule, but it's very meaningful symbolism. So I like that flag a lot. You mentioned Mongolia, Chicago. Um North Macedonia is a very incredible flag to me. Yeah. You'll kind of note this as well. I like flags with birds on them. I also tend to like flags with sun and sunbeams and sunrays on them. Because the sun is a very universal symbol. Everybody knows what it means, and it is so striking, so distinct. Um, now the North Macedonian symbol is, you know, has a lot of deep ties to like Greek Hellenistic culture. Um, I got into this also, shameless plug on a fork in time, on an episode recently, which I don't think has released yet at the time of this recording, but I basically talked about, hey, North Macedonia as a p modern polity, a modern entity, really has very little to do with the actual province of Macedonia in ancient Greece and you know the region where Alexander the Great is from. Um I probably now banned Evan Extemporaneous in North Macedonia as a result of that comment, but hey, I'm just going with what I know about history. So fight me.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:16

Um I'd like to shout out the Albanian flag, by the way, while we're in the region.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:20

Yeah. It's got a complicated symbol on it, but it's very stark, it's very memorable. I agree with that. I like that. Georgia, the country, versus Georgia the state. Georgia the state has one of the worst flags I've ever seen. Georgia the country has one of the greatest flags I've ever seen. And it's very simple. You basically take England's flag and add four little Georgian crosses in each of the quadrants. And you have a Georgian flag. But it it's distinctly Georgian. It looks great. It looks awesome. Um two more flags. North Korea's flag, I think it's good. Oh yeah, that's a great one. Well, again, politics aside, North Korea's flag is honestly one of the best flags, I would say.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:01

Not as good as North Korea. Not as good as South Korea's in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:04

I would say not as good, but it is still one of the best. And South Korea's is very top tier, for sure. Incredibly I I like flags with birds. I like well done birds, by the way. I like flags with um, you know, what is it called? The yin and the yang symbol? Mongolia, South Korea. Yeah. We and I like flags with suns in them. So do you know what would be funny, Kai? It'd be funny if one of us decided to create a flag that had literally all of the element designs that we like in it, and it will create one of the most ugly garish flags possible. Because I am envisioning like a yin and a yang with sunbeams around it and a flag and like like an eagle flying out. Like, it's gonna look horrible. But if someone enterprising in our audience wanted to design such a flag, I would I would low key I would pay. Now, maybe not a lot. Maybe I'll give you like a penny for your thoughts or something, but like I would pay to see that because I think it'd just be so funny.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:03

That would be that would be outstanding.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:05

But anyway, flags that prominent feature like one star in it, like uh Burkina Faso or Vietnam. Those are two flags that I think are very simple, very stark, and they just have one main star in it. I think it looks great. Personally, I love those flags. The last flag I'm gonna mention Jamaica.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:26

I want to shout out Jamaica. Oh, yes. I love the Jamaican flag. It's a very unique the design the design scheme is pretty straightforward. It's kind of like Scotland. It's like Scotland. But the color scheme is very unique and very appealing.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:39

Yeah, no, a very good one to shout out there as well. The very last one I'm gonna shout out for now as a good example, and I'm sure we'll get into more later, but the Maori flag. And I am not gonna try and pronounce this. You know what? Screw it, I am gonna try and pronounce it. It's formerly referred to as the Tino Renga Tiratanga. Renga Tiratonga. Yeah, that actually wasn't as hard as I would have thought it would have been. Now I probably butchered it, but just from a romanticized English reading of it, it's not as bad as I would have thought. Um that's the flag of the Maori native people in New Zealand. Pause this episode and look it up right now. Incredible. It's outstanding. It's absolutely outstanding. Alright, well, we've been fanboying over a lot of flags for quite some time, but now I think is a perfect time to transition into talking about horrible flag examples and why we hate them so much. Kai, lead the charge.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:35

So, the fertile grounds for assaulting and demeaning flags is the United States. The United States has a bunch of outstanding flags that we've already enumerated. We have the flag of Arizona, we have the flag of Colorado, New Mexico, we have the flag of Utah, we have the flag of California, even as a pretty decent flag. We have the flag of Maryland, uh, we have a bunch of flags that are very, very solid in this union. However, we also have a bunch of flags that are not so stellar, and a lot of them are not so stellar for a similar reason. And it has been disparagingly called the um seal on bed sheets motif. Essentially, it is a garish, overly designed seal emblazoned on a flag on a monochromatic blue flag. And this motif is repeated in a bunch of states. Um, and most of those states are uh states that you that we would recognize as big big states. So, for example, I mean you've got the state of Michigan, you've got the state of um Illinois, you got the state of Virginia, you've got Idaho, you've got um uh Kansas, you've got Massachusetts, you've got New Hampshire. There's a lot of states that use this motif. New York, for example, does this.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:10

Um, and then can I just hear and say that it's not only the state seal that makes these flags so horrible? It's the fact that they feel the need to say in big bold letters the name of the state too. Like, why do I have to see, you know, state of Delaware, for example? I don't think this the Delaware flag has a state of Delaware, but it has a date listed on it. Now, granted, it's a date that's that's significant, but I think it's the the when they were the first state to accept the Constitution. But it's still it's just so garish. It's so awful.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:46

Oh, the Wisconsin flag is the worst. Yeah, Wisconsin flag is terrible.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:50

Montana Montana took giant letters across the top. It you might as well just put it in comic sans at this point.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:58

Oklahoma. No, the thing. That's most offensive about the Wisconsin flag that because at least the Montana flag attempts to use a color for their uh text that matches the symbol. Yeah, that's true. The Wisconsin flag, imagine taking essentially a blue sheet of paper, writing Wisconsin an aerial font, 1848 an aerial font, and then slapping a garish, overly designed seal on it. That's the Wisconsin state flag. It is an assault on all things flag design. It is one of the most offensive flags I've ever seen. It's horrendous. Um, yeah, the Wisconsin flag is I think the Wisconsin flag has to be one of the probably the worst.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:42

Yeah, I would say the Wisconsin flag is the worst because, well, maybe North Dakota kind of gives it a run for its money. But the thing about North Dakota is that it's it the the Eagle is a pretty interesting design, and the North Dakota part of the flag is in at least a somewhat interesting looking motif. Like it's not just big, giant, bold block letters. Um, but I would say between like Wisconsin and I don't know, Kansas is is pretty bad. Um, you know, Oklahoma, the thing that you could do to fix the state of Oklahoma is just remove the letters. Like literally just take the central symbol, which is admittedly not very simple, but it's a deeply symbolic meaning for Oklahoma. Just make it bigger. Get rid of the text. It would look a lot better.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:35

Virginia, Virginia is a flag. Another one that could be good, but it violates a principle is the flag, say flag of Ohio. Um, they wanted to be cute for some reason, and so they don't use a um rectangular or even a square design. I mean, Switzerland gets away with a square design, but Nepal and Ohio need to go back to the drawing board and get back into that rectangular motif because it just doesn't look good. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:01

Yeah, it doesn't. I mean, I would Ohio's is very distinctive. I liked it for a while, and then I've kind of soured on it over the years. It definitely is one that needs a redesign. We mentioned Nepal. Nepal is just weird. I I I I've looked into the history of it. I I kind of understand why, especially for a Himalayan country that is literally the highest in the planet, like why you don't have a giant rectangular flag. But at least just make it like Switzerland's flag and make it a square, and that would automatically make it look better, in my humble opinion. Like it really isn't even a flag at this point. Like it I would say it barely qualifies as a flag. Um as long as we're on the subject of state flags, I'll say Virginia, even though it is one of those garish state seal flags. The state seal is so iconic to me, you know, Seek Semper Tyrannis, thus ever to tyrants. I think it would be better as like a maybe a naval ensign or something, um, not a state flag. But I am a little bit more forgiving on Virginia just because I do find the the state symbol to be pretty cool. But a flag that I think I'm forgiving of Wyoming. Well, that's why you took the words out of my mouth.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:13

Wyoming is a state flag that to me is really nice. It looks really good, but all they need to do is remove the seal that is in the middle of the buffalo. Like, I don't know why it's on the middle of the buffalo. It's not like the buffalo's wearing it as a shield or something, it just looks bad. But if you take this the that shield away, if you take that seal away, the flag of Wyoming is incredibly distinct and looks awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:40

Yes, I agree with you on that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:42

It's good. But it but but but but it gets back to the point of the fact that a lot of these flags, they use a similar motif. And I think if I could critique all of them in one fell swoop, it's the fact that, barring, of course, the flags that somewhat obtusely plaster their name onto the flag. It is very difficult, even for seasoned vexillologists like Evan and myself to distinguish these flags from one another unless they aid and abet you by, as I said, obtusely making it clear what state they are by putting the state's name on there. Um, so these are that makes it a bad flag to me inherently. It's not something that can be recognized readily because it uses a borrowed motif and it does so however many times. I it's gotta be at least 10 or 10 or 15 times. Um, and so therefore it becomes a problem to distinguish them.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:34

Yeah, I mean I'm just looking at that list of the US state flags, and the color blue, like some sort of variation of dark blue, is on so many of these flags, it is crazy to me. Yeah. And I will just for to for to honorable mention, shout out for a flag that I could say can get away with violating the no words rule, is Arkansas. I think Arkansas's flag is pr a pretty solid design, and I do think the word Arkansas in the middle of it is a little garish, but I I kind of think it gets a pass from me. Personally.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:14

Yeah, I mean, it it's certainly not as offensive uh because it is built into the the logo and it's not it doesn't um how would I describe it? It doesn't rely on the symbol on the seal on a bed sheet. Yeah, it doesn't overwhelm you state. Yeah. It's not overwhelming. It it is incorporated into the design in a way that feels that feels acceptable and not gaudy. Yeah, you know, I think that's how I would describe it. But that said, I want to definitely pay I definitely want to pay um homage to those people who defend these state seals, uh, these seals on bed sheets flag, because there are people who defend them. Um I follow a YouTuber um who I like very much. His name is JJ McCullough. Um he's a Canadian YouTuber who does a lot of vexillology on his channel. Um perhaps we can link his video into the uh the show notes. He is someone who was initially vocalizing a lot of the critiques that Evan and I have vocalized about these seal-on bed sheets motifs used in state flags. But he has slowly become a supporter of them and an opponent of these nascent movements to alter the state flags. Uh, we mentioned one, Utah. Another one that also changed the state flag was Minnesota. Um, personally, I think the Minnesota state flag is good, but it is a little simplistic for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:48

I know it's good, but it loses distinctiveness to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:52

Yeah, it really loses its distinctiveness and it really feels more like clip art than an actual state flag. Um it's good and it's an improvement, but it's it's not quite there. The Utah State flag, by contrast, is in my opinion, overall a resounding success. It's a very good flag. Um, it definitely has a modern feel to it, so it doesn't feel as uh aged as the seal on bed sheets. And for those who have a fascination with antiquity, that might be a complaint that they would levy against it. But for me personally, as someone who has more of a pension for design, um, I approve of the Utah flag design. But this YouTuber has come to the conclusion that he uh is against these movements to change the to change the state flags, which are burgeoning in a lot of different states, actually. There's a lot. If you Google any state that has a bad flag, and then you Google redesign, you'll see a number of really good and sometimes really bad flag redesigns. And then occasionally you'll also see that the state legislative bodies are actually collecting these flag to redesigns in the hopes of potentially putting forth a ballot measure to change the flag. But he's against it, and the reason why he is becoming against it is because he views these state symbols, these seals, as indicative of the state's history and therefore exempt from these rules of good flag design. And he argues correctly that the seals are historical emblems that were traditionally of much greater importance than the actual flag. And this goes back to what I said at the beginning of the episode about how, again, the original government of the United States was much more concerned with having an official state seal than they were with having an official state flag. And so he argues that with these efforts to remove the state seal, simplify the flag design, and make an overall more pulquitutinous to use a very over-the-top word, flag design is doing a disservice to the historicity of the flag of the original flag design. And I have to say that although I am sympathetic to flag redesigns purely because I love the art of designing a new flag and seeing what people come up with, I can lend a sympathetic ear to that argument and say, listen, these flags, however garish they may be, however gaudy they may be, however ugly they may be, they have historical meaning, and so to change them, to discard that history in favor of a modern design flag, is doing a disservice to the history of the state.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:42

Yeah, I mean, I would say that there certainly is uh a strength to that argument. I'll I'll pick Michigan as an example. Michigan's state flag, although it is pretty ugly, um ties its roots back to the Civil War, uh like Michigan regiments, I believe, in the Union Army. Um so yeah, there is a lot of history there. And I would tend to agree with uh that overall point to to a certain degree. I think you can look at state flags like uh Mississippi, for example. Mississippi was a flag that redesigned more so due to historical controversy, the fact that they were the last state, I believe, that still prominently featured a uh Confederate flag in their state flag. So there was a lot of outcry over that, especially with controversies over the use of the Confederate flag on various state government grounds like South Carolina.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:41

By the way, and I know we're gonna get in trouble on this podcast for saying this, but I think it has to be said, the Confederate flag, the one that is so controversial these days, which by the way was not the flag of the Confederacy.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:53

Was not actually the Confederate flag.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:55

But the stars and bars, I'm not supporting the I'm not supporting what it stands for. I'm not supporting uh the history of it, but objectively, it is a good flag design.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:06

Yeah, I would say it's a good flag design, and I think the controversy behind it as to what it actually symbolizes now or means today, that's that's definitely something for another episode, another podcast. Um I would be very interested in hearing yours and other people's thoughts on that, because I certainly my opinion on that has kind of evolved and changed over time. Um, but yeah, just purely on a uh aesthetics level, yeah. The if I remember correctly, the stars and bars were a was that a naval ensign or was that their military um flag?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:39

Um I think it was a military flag. I'm pretty sure it was their military flag. Um it was a military flag, but it wasn't even the military flag. It wasn't the main flag. The Confederate flag is a basically like a simplified American flag with the 13 colonies. I mean, it's it's it's not at all distinct. It's not the same SARS and bars flag that we think of. Yeah, when we think of the Confederacy.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:05

Exactly. So but anyway, um I guess just kind of continuing on with some, and I I basically I'll just say I I will lend a sympathetic ear to that YouTuber's argument. I do think that there is a danger, like the Minnesota state flag, for example, while it's not a bad one, I do think it does kind of oversimplify and reduce the distinctiveness of the state flag. So there is a danger of swinging too much to the opposite extreme with some of these uh redesign movements. And that is just kind of a a nascent minimalism um that is kind of coming, you know, pervading through society writ large in general. Um when you apply that those sorts of values to state flag making, i it can make things that just well, almost to the point of the caddafi Libyan flag really just lose a lot of its distinctiveness and what makes it stand out as a state symbol. So i everything in balance, everything in moderation, and if you're able to bend the rules of what makes a good flag a good flag to make something that really makes your flag unique, I'd say absolutely go for it, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:21

Yeah, like on the scale of Libya's Qaddafi Qaddafi's Libya to Maryland, you know, you can very much be on one side and too far on one side. And even though the Maryland state flag is an example of a successful, overly complicated design, there are many examples of a state design that is of a flag design that is too complicated and therefore not appealing. Exactly. You gotta strike that balance. The state flag of Minnesota for me is a little bit too much on the Libya, on the Qaddafi's Libya side. It's just too minimalistic for me. It's it's it's it's uh but again, it's subjective because one could argue the New Mexico flag is even more simplistic, but to me it's not quite as simplistic because it's such a unique color scheme.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:11

It's a unique color scheme and a unique symbol in the middle, is what I would argue. But you want to talk about uh this I'm going to probably peg as the worst flag. And it's it it violates, I would say, uh pretty much all of the rules of making a good flag. I wouldn't say it's the most garish flag when it comes to its symbolism, but just you look at the flag. Kai, I don't know if you've googled this, google it right now as as I say it. Have you seen the flag of the city of Tampa, Florida? City of Tampa, Florida. Yeah. Look it up right now and tell me. Oh my gosh. Tell me if that is not a Christmas themed B-2 bomber on the edge of that flag with a white star and on on blue in the middle, like what on earth is going on with this flag? Like, you want to say Ohio and Nepal are terribly shaped? I mean, uh you can argue maybe Tampa's is a little better because it at least moonlights uh or c or LARPs as a rectangular flag, but even there it actually doesn't, because it like the Ohio flag, it tapers down to a certain point. Then you have, like I said, the B-2 bomber at the end of it, and it's just like, what what were these guys smoking when they came up with this flag? You got the garish seal in the middle, you got I don't even want to count how how many colours do they have on this thing? One, two, three, four five. Maybe maybe you could argue five, but just the distribution of these flag colors and elements it's it's it's so bad. It's it's it's like you took a fourth grader and tasked them with making some sort of meaningful city flag. It it it just looks terrible to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:04

I'm gonna I'm gonna agree with you that that is one of the worst flag designs I've ever seen, but I'm gonna raise you one more, and I'm gonna introduce you to the legend. The legend of Pocatella, Idaho.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:17

Oh yeah. Well, I I even had that in my notes. The old Pocatella, Idaho flag. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:26

Proud to be proud to be Pocatello, baby. For those who don't know, look up Pocket Pocatella, Idaho. It's P-O-C-A-T-E-L-L-O Idaho. It is a flag which features the most gaudy, over-designed text, which reads, Proud to be Pocatello. It features two hazily drawn, uh, not hastily, like the design is hazy. The mountains look hazy. Purple mountains, these hazy drawn purple mountains. And then the most offensive thing about this flag is the fact that the flag contains a copyright notification of the Greater Pocketello Chamber of Council.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:12

I just the first time I saw that, I am I was wheezing. I'm just like, there is no way.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:18

There is no way the Greater Pocatello Chamber of Commerce copyrighted the flag and put the copyright on the flag.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:26

And they put a trademark symbol next to the entire thing. Like on the flag. Literally on the flag.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:38

Yeah, like it was deemed the worst, it was deemed the worst flag in the in in North America, and it has since been remedied to a flag that's much better.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:46

It is, I would say they upgraded from one of the worst to one of the best city flags. It's a great, it's a great flag. It's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:53

Um, yeah, yeah, it's very good. Yeah. So they they they've since they've rectified the wrong, but while it was the flag, it it has to be one of the worst flags ever made in the history of flags.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:06

Yeah. I would say I yes, I totally agree. I would say, you know, just because I'm being a little bit debatery and argumentative, the uh the Tampa flag is still a current flag. The Pocatello flag is a former flag. So I would say Tampa is one of the worst existing flags, if not the worst existing flag that we talked about on the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:26

Yeah, I've never seen the Tampa flag, um, but that is that is absolutely that is an eyesore. I feel violently talking about that flag.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:35

Yeah. Fitting, fitting for a Florida City.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:37

No shade on Florida, but Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think Florida does deserve some shade in certain in certain degrees, but we won't get into that. Um I do want to drop some other flags as well that did get kind of destroyed on, you know, various Facebook groups and just various vexillological uh discussion groups. Um granted, I will say before I get into these flags, or just drop them all writ large, there is somewhat of a somewhat defensible understanding of these flags in that in certain countries you are mainly designing flags not with uh computers, but with textiles, so you kind of have to go with what you got. I'll give you that. But I will say that Kai, this is where perspective rule number six comes in of having it be able to look good when you crop it or resize it, or digitize it. I would throw digitizing it in there as something to make for a good flag. Um, that would make that would automatically render these garish flags that already look bad to me even worse. Um, and that's the county flags of Liberia. Now, if you look up the flags of these different countries, especially uh River G County, Niger uh Liberia, they basically look like a child drew the flag. So it's certainly most of these flags certainly are Oh my goodness. Yeah, I'm not kidding. These are hideous flags. They would be so much better, first of all, if they just removed the Liberia flag in the upper left canton. Like, I understand why it's there be to represent that it's a flag of a Liberian county and not some independent country. But like uh Grand Geta County, for example, I think is a pretty solid-looking flag. And it has uh it's a very clever motif uh uh of the traditional tricolor, but it makes the bottom green part of the tricolor, it turns it into a mountain with a sun on the top of it. So I think it's pretty good if you just take out the Liberian flag.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:53

Some of these colours or even the Montserratto County, if you just remove the symbol and you remove the Liberian portion, you just have the the oblique line that separates the red from the blue with the two light blue symptoms with the two light blue circles. That would be an outstanding flag.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:09

Yeah, that would be pretty solid.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:10

Or the Margibie, the Margibie County flag with the the green, white, and red with the circle in the middle. Outstanding.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:18

Yeah, no, these are great flags. They're they're onto something here for sure. But they just they need to remove Liberia and they need to, and some of these like River G are just beyond helping. Like, I don't care how many textiles you have and lack of computers, you just you gotta fix that one. That one is just terrible. Um, but yeah, those are some examples I would say of flags that are pretty bad that need redesigns. We've had flags that we've noted as well, like Pocatello, that did end up commissioning and having a fan uh an amazing, fantastic redesign. So all of that is to say and to and to uh bring to the forefront of Growing globalization trends, I would say, are kind of exposing and highlighting these uh county, city, state, and national flags uh to a level where flagmakers need to contemplate not just what it means to their locality, but if it actually m makes sense and looks good and is recognizable and understandable across culturally. And that is a tough task to uh be able to effectively and consistently do. And you know, uh maybe you're not gonna always be able to do it. But you can even take an example of a flag like uh Bhutan, like we name-dropped before. That's a flag that is very stark, very uh, you know, represents the nation well. It has the national symbol of the thunder dragon uh right across the uh the flag itself and it doesn't really uh do anything to apologize for what it is, or try to blend in and it like if the Bhutanese tried to make their flag European, uh it would lose all of its sense of distinctiveness. So to a certain extent, I think uh you know, yeah, you do need to make a flag that is very distinct and symbolizes your own county or city or c state or nation. But I would say globalization trends also show, and I would say, because we want if we want to talk about a broad topic to go down a rabbit hole on, the effects of and impacts of globalization, you could have like a five to ten part series on on this show. But I'm just gonna say, when we have a microcosm of talking about globalization when it comes to flag design, I would say that for the most part, it has done more good than harm. Because it has highlighted and, you know, the power of the internet has shown the, you know, amazing good flag designs all across the world, and has also really highlighted poor designs, to the extent where it has single-handedly forced and bullied flag designers into making better flags. So I think it's really in the end, it's kind of done more more good than harm. Um I wouldn't say it's all sunshine and roses, but for the most part, I would say the globalization of national flag designs has done more good than harm.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:25

No doubt. Yeah, no, I'm I'm in complete agreement on that. I think that the the and I think that's exemplified with the uh whole debate, even in the states, about redesigning their flags to make them more appealing. Because again, it it goes back to if a if a county, a city, a state, a country, has a good flag, that is a source of revenue because they can they can brand things with that, they can make a make it into a cultural icon that attracts people, and then when you go and visit that place, you can symbolize the fact that you visited there by getting a souvenir that has that distinct state flag on there, or city flag, or local, or locale flag, or country flag. Um, I mean, I am a big collector of um uh uh fridge magnets, and I have a bunch of frig fridge magnets of various places that I visited. Not all of them are flag related, um, but if I have nothing else to go off of, I will almost certainly go off of the flag of whatever place I am in. So it always brings me great joy when I go to a new place and I found and I find that they have a uh a flag. So I'm gonna shout out a place that I was um not too long ago that I'm sure very few people will have heard of, but I was extremely pleased to find out that this cute little town had a flag, and so I want to shout them out and say, well done. I was as mentioned, I was in the state of Missouri, and I'm not talking about St. Louis. I would never refer to St. Louis as a small town. I was there in St. Louis, and St. Louis has a great flag. Um, I went to a small little town, it's a German enclave town called Herman, Missouri. And Herman, Missouri was flying a flag that I did not recognize at all. It is a very simple design, and I'm not lauding the design here because it's very basic, but it's essentially a green flag, or it's essentially a green horizontal stripe with a purple horizontal stripe. Um and I looked it up, and that is the flag of Herman, Missouri. And it struck me as wow, this town actually has a flag of its own. The population of Herman, Missouri can't be in excess of 10,000 people. It's a very, very small town. Probably.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:56

Yeah, Wikipedia, Wikipedia is actually telling me it's around uh 2100 to 2200.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:02

Yeah. So the fact that they took the time to make a city flag was very appealing to me, and I thought it was was was very um charming. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:12

No, that's that's pretty interesting. I like that. Good stuff. Well, I have really only one major thing that I kind of want to close off with as we start tapering off here, bringing this discussion to a close. Um, I actually designed a flag for my family. And it's interesting because I took design elements from what purports to be like the Buck family, family crust or whatever. And I'll see if I can have a picture or something in the uh show notes or post it on the Discord or by the uh which, by the way, obligatory Samless plug for the Discord. Uh, if you want extra DLC content and DLC not as in like side stories I put on the show, which I haven't done in a hot minute, um, but like just extra insights or things or discussion uh for Evan Extemporaneous, feel free, please, to join our growing cute little Discord community. Um that's where you can kind of keep up with all things on the show. But shameless plug aside, um, I created a flag and I very purposefully uh took the Maryland State flag, the Bavaria flag, and had that be like the main portion of the flag, similar to that, not the same. But on so I I made the choice, which I think is fairly unique. And looking back, I don't know if it was the best choice, but I still think it's distinct, and I think it's very unique and interesting, where I had a canton on the left, very, very similar to the United States Canton with like 50 stars, but it doesn't have 50 stars. I think it has, and I I'm probably gonna misremember the number, but it has like seven uh crosses on the top left, and they're not crosses that you normally think of as like your stereotypical like crucifix-style cross. They're European, uh stylized crosses. Um, very simplistic, but also I think very distinctive. And so, yeah, I'll I'll after this call is up, Kai, I'll try and see if I can find where I put that flag and send you a picture and see what you think of it. Um, but the main colors of it are black and white for so the the the canton is white, the crosses are black in the canton, and then for the most of the flag where you would normally envision like the stars and stripes, I have like light blue-ish and yellow as kinda uh you kind of think of like the part of the Maryland flag that has the diagonal um squares in it, and think that's what the flag looks like. I don't know if I did a good job of describing the flag, but do you have a good visual idea of it? What would you just from an eye? I think so. Yeah, from an eye- I think so. I would like to see it to see how my how your your mind's eye mental image compares. Yeah, but I'd be interested to see your opinion and people's opinion on it. I designed it several, several years ago, and um I just did it as kind of like a on on a whim, you know. I'm like, you know what, I'll make a family flag, why not? So but anyway, that's kind of the last thing I wanted to to bring up here. Um Kai, do you have any other uh passing or closing thoughts before we wrap up this discussion? This has been an awesome discussion, by the way. It definitely went into areas that I did not think we would get into or go into, but it was a lot of fun. And I'm glad that I could have you on the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:42

Yes, it was definitely fun. I think the only thing that I would like to hear before uh we we log off is to um perhaps you could regale us with your top five favorite flags. And for the sake of simplicity to make things a little easier, let's limit it to country flags.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:04

Country flags? Hmm. Yeah, that that that is a that is very tough, but I would I'm just gonna list, I'm just gonna shotgun what kind of immediately comes to mind. And I know I'm gonna probably kick myself later and be like, oh, I didn't think of that, or whatever, but I am just going to highlight and go for the ones that I that just personally strike me. They're in no particular order, but I'm just gonna say these are my top five. I'm gonna say uh Greenland, Kazakhstan, Namibia, Mongolia, and I guess I'll go with North Macedonia. Those I would probably say are are my top five flags.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:49

That's that's a very good selection. For me, I would say if I had to rank them, and I'm not including um uh I'm not including the uh technically countries like Scotland or Wales or some places like that. Right, I stayed away. I stayed away from those.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:08

Yeah, United Nations states, which Greenland technically isn't, it's part of Denmark.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:13

I was gonna say, but I'll I'll excuse that because it'll allow it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:19

Um, so I would say my top five flags would have to be number one, and again, I'm going off of the top of my head here, so it would I will probably kick myself in the head later. Number one would for me would have to be Norway. Um stunning. Absolutely love the Norway flag. Uh and of the Scandinavian countries that all feature that cross, um, I think Norway does the best, followed by Iceland.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:52

I would I would tend to agree. It's it's very close between Iceland and Norway for me, but I I think those are my top two of the Nordic countries. Finland, I would say, is probably my next one.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:03

Yeah, I would say Sweden is my least favorite of them, um, but I still like it. Yeah, same. But yeah. Sorry, sorry, Dad.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:09

My my dad is partly of Swedish ancestry, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:14

Yeah. So Norway, number one for me. Number two would have to be the UK. Um, I think the UK, the the Union Jack is an outstanding, iconic flag design. Um number three would probably have to be. Oh, you know what? I might like this one more than the UK flag, South Africa.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:36

Um South Africa's flag is top tier to me. Absolutely outstanding. Um, I'm actually a sucker for the Japanese flag. I think it's so simple and yet it is so iconic, and then you throw in the rising sun flag uh as kind of a bonus alteration of the flag, and it's an outstanding flag. It's a case point, it's a case of a flag being so simple and yet at the same time so unbelievably iconic as to be unmistakable. It just works and it works so well. And the history, the fact that Japan is also called the land of the rising sun, and their flag so discreetly and yet perfectly represents that, stellar. 100%. And then, of course, the Namibia flag. Namibia's flag is outstanding. I agree with you on that. It's it's just an amazing flag. So I would say those are probably my top five just going off the top of my head.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:27

Yeah, no, I would agree those are those are all pretty great flags, for sure. Alright, well, there you have it. We got our top five favorite flags. Um let us know what you think in the comments about this whole discussion. Have we interested you into learning more and studying vexillology and what makes a good flag a good flag? Do you agree with our opinions? Disagree. Um I'll put a little quick shout-out as well. Uh a thing that I like to do as well is like alternate flag designs based on other flags. So, for example, like if the flag of Scotland looked like the flag of Saudi Arabia or California or Cyprus, like it it's not meant to be a serious exercise of this is what I actually think the flag should look like. It's more so just trying to envision if flag designers took cues from other flags, like how would that possibly look? Um, when you take flags and make them look like Saudi Arabia's flag, there's some pretty interesting results, some pretty bad results. Excuse me, some pretty bad results, but also some pretty decent ones as well. So um Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:38

I I would say writ large, the continent of or the Middle Eastern portion of the world has the most work to do to get their flags up to date. I think that they on the whole have the worst flags. Africa surprisingly comes in very strong on the flag design. Africa has a lot of good ones, I would say.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:57

They have some duds, they have some they have some really big duds in there as well. Um, but like the Chad flag, for example, is not the most expensive.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:07

Zambia. Yeah, there's some bad ones.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:10

But I would say North of North America doesn't have the best reputation. I mean, the flag of the US is pretty good. The flag of Mexico is not so great.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:19

Um, from a vexillology standpoint, uh yeah, because of the symbology, but I gotta say, Mexico's flag is iconic and you instantly recognize it. The eagle and the snake, it somehow to me makes for a good design, even though I kind of know it's not supposed to be a good design. I happen to personally really like the Mexican flag, but that's just me.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:43

Yeah, to me, it's to me, although it is iconic, it's it's it's too similar to the Italian flag. It just doesn't have the same the same evocative uh nature to it. But again, I'm maybe in the the minority here because I've seen a lot of people laud the Canadian flag, and to me, I think the Canadian flag is a mid-tier flag design.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:07

I happen to think it's pretty good. It's I'd say it's like higher on the mid-tier. I think it's just because it is so distinctly Canadian. You know what it is the instant you see it. Um but I would tend to agree. It's it's not it's not the best.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:23

It's not a bad flag. The Mexican flag is also not a bad flag. It's just not it's not a flag that that pops to me.

SPEAKER_03 2:05:33

I I can see where you're coming from.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:36

All three of the North American flags reside in a very similar band of the tier list for me, which is maybe upper mid-tier.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:45

Yeah. For sure. All right. Well, thank you so much, everyone, for tuning in. This has been a very fun, very interesting, entertaining show, at least for us both. Um now I I'm gonna watch the statistics on listening come in, and it'll be two downloads, and it'll just be us two listening to ourselves talk. Um but if you've listened to the listened all the way through to this point in the show, we thank you so much for tuning in. We hope you found this as interesting and entertaining and enlightening a discussion as we have. And sound off in the Discord. And until next time, as we always like to end off this show, as a reminder, the buck always stops right here because we are looking out for you. And you know what? I might already have a decent idea for a flag design for this podcast. It's basically just my current logo of the microphone with the deer antlers. And maybe I could do something with that. Who knows?

SPEAKER_02 2:06:45

I'd like to see the design.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:47

Yeah. Anyway, yeah. Thank you so much, everyone, for tuning in. And you take care of yourself, and I will shamelessly take the closing line for Free Canomics Radio here as well and appropriate it. Take care of yourself, and if you can, take care of someone else too. See ya.